christians…
I went a lunch today for a group of pastors in my area. Someone spoke briefly and encouraged the group that we all need to remember that if someone isn’t a Christian, it may just be that no one has ever told them. Well, in his case, that was true. I’ll never question his story. And in many other cases, that is also true. But, I dont suspect those cases are the majority. A couple weeks back I read, Unchristian, by David Kinnaman. I mentioned it before and the discussion today brought it to memory. Here is a clip from that book: >> Listen to the Audio Clip
See, I would tend to agree with Mr Kinnaman here. And from that this is what I suggest…The major problem today isn’t lack of information. The problem isn’t what people don’t know about Christians, its what they do know. It’s the image that people have that is constructed of the lives they observe. The overhwleming image of Christianity is one that is not appealing…and for that, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Comments? I will discuss this more soon…
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good ramble. agree wholeheartedly. i don’t care much for the “christian” label. i much rather think that “Christ-follower” would cause us to pause and ask ourselves if how we are living is a clear representation of what it looks like be be molding our lives after the King of Kings. what it looks like to be a FOLLOWER. not the smarmy WWJD, but really, introspective reflection on whether our actions, thoughts and heart are in keeping with who Jesus is.
we were just talking about this topic the other day. i think this “Christ follower” label (and i hate the fact that we tend to label anyway) would help us acheive the unity that Christ so desired for his church. gone are the “oh, y’all believe in dispensationalism” or “you have to be baptized blah blah blah” or those types of things that get in the way of the true, unadulterated GOSPEL.
i hate that i misrepresent Him at times (okay, problably more that at times, but ohwell)and cause people to pause to consider whether or not they want to believe because the messenger is an idiot.
may it give us all reason to condsider the aroma we are leaving in our wake.
I agree as well. I believe the Word, the doctrine and the worship are tools for those who are already Christians to explore and grow their faith. The person you become and thereby your actions are a product of that exploration and growth. The proof that this lifestyle is positive and fulfilling is what the non-churched will respond to, not being told that they need to read the Bible and have to go to church. I don’t know if I have ever been responsible for bringing anyone to Christ. What I do know is I have had more meaningful conversations about my faith as a result of someone asking me “how it is I am so happy” or “why are you so nice all the time” then by me approaching them about their faith or lack there of.
In response to “purejoy” I don’t think for one minute you are an idiot. You are human as we all are and I think that’s one of the greatest advertisements of our faith. We are going to touch more people by showing them that God accepts and cherishes us in spite of our mistakes. It’s that group of people that have the “Holier then Thou” and the “God has made me perfect” attitudes that turn most people off.
I think the popular Brennan Manning quote that DC Talk uses in the beginning of “What If I Stumble” says alot. I do think it’s a bit of a generalization, but there is alot of truth to it.
I agree. I don’t have time to go into it further, but look forward to the coming discussions.
hmmm. As someone who was raised as an athiest, and came to know Christ as an adult, being introduced to Christ by Christians… I would say that it was more about what I THOUGHT I knew about Christians, and what the world, media, and the quiet Christian was leading me to believe about Christianity. I will say, it was always a shame that the loudest Christians seemed to be the most wacko Christians.
I STILL think we, as Christians, need to speak the name of Christ, and be bold, and also have some lines in the sand IN ADDITION to showing love. A little Joy doesn’t hurt either!!! We need to be sure to remind others to NEVER look to Christians, since we are not perfect – just forgiven.But, instead, to point toward the only One who IS perfect.
Where do I see that Christian’s are failing? We do not heed these words:
Colossians 4:6:
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.”
and
1 Peter 3:15:
“But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,”
just my two cents.
Darlene
ok, one more thing.
I have to say that I see a trend in Christian circles, and I am NOT accusing you of this, but I think it warrents being including in the discussion, and that trend is Christian bashing.
For example, all of the songs by Casting Crowns. Whew. With friends like this, who needs enemies.
We must be in the business of encouraging one another for what we are doing right, and building each other up. Not so we can rest on our laurels, but so that we can exhort one another to do MORE good, to speak MORE boldly.
We should never jump aboard with those who point at the church walls with anger and hatred… and I am noticing a trend toward that in the Christian community.
Exhort… don’t trash or bash, loved ones in Christ! Fight the good fight, in Christian unity. And where you see a brother failing, look inward and ask if maybe you are being called by God to “call them out.”
anyway, more of my 2 cents.
Dar
This discussion is worthy of dozens of forums.
And Unchristian is on my to-read list.
Darren…
What you speak about here, especially hits me. I’ve been hurt more grievously by those who claim Christ, then I ever have been by those who don’t.
Truthfully, I’ve not been to church in a long time. I just don’t want to be hurt again.
First let me say….. I believe in God, i love God, i know God. I go to church every Sunday and i know the bible. I am not a fan of “christians” though. Obviously i have not been a religious person my whole life and one reason is because of the fanatic ways of “christians”. Nothing is ever good enough and they insist that it is their personal mission to “Save” you even if you feel in your belief system that you don’t need to be saved. And i will also say this…. Going to church regularly has only reinforced the conclusions i have jumped to before.
good, good discussion. anxious to hear more. and sheree, i have been there, too. but i keep coming back. b/c it’s not about the building or the fallen inside of it. it’s about my Sovereign Redeemer King.
press on!
Purejoy – thank you for your kind and caring comments. However, there’s a point that I beg to differ on. While I understand what you’re getting at, my premise is that Christianity IS relational – not just to God, but to people (in and outside “The Body”) as well. In Christianity, as well as many other things, no man is an island. Have I failed people also? Absolutely. But, I can only speak from my painful experiences with “The Church/Body.” I know that it’s not God – He gave us free will, and all too often people act on that, but not in a good way. I’m just so weary of dealing with those who claim Christ, but when seeing their walk, it’s like watching a blind man walk without help of assistance. I want to scream at them, “AT LEAST TRY!” I see people who just seem to delight in absolutely tearing others apart, but are the first to stand up in church and shout Hallelujah. I apologize for sounding bitter or even angry. Common sense dictates that not everyone within the Body of Christ is a total hypocrite. But unfortunately… enough of them are.
People have been hurt enough by the hard knocks of life, without being hurt by those who should be held to a higher standard (as I believe God calls Christians to be) in being able to be true witnesses for Christ without using mere words.
sheree, well said. i can only imagine how grieved our God is when he sees his people misrepresenting him. if there was an answer to that, then we’d all be rockstar missionaries.
i hear you loud and clear. i only hope that i can be a faithful example and not a pharisee.
thanks for sharing your heart so eloquently.
I suppose that’s why Paul said (paraphrased) that everything, even “spiritual things” are meaningless, if we have not love.
i have a friend whose going to be homeless next week. i was wondering if the church today was like the early church, if he would have a home and possibly a job soon. i suggested he read the bible, cuz thats all i can give him really. i have no money, no home of my own, i myself am looking for a job. if i could take him in, help him find a job, help him get on his feet, i wonder what impact it would have. he has no family to go too, and he’s about my age. it just got me thinking today of something josh bova quoted “Go throughout the world and preach the gospel, if nescisary, use words”. i think we can use evangelism as a mask to cop out on really caring about people. Thats harsh though…but here’s what i do know. i have not sat in many sermans that were focused on teaching me how to love others.
Chris, make sure your friend knows that you understand. It helps when we know that we are not the only one…
I pray that God makes a way where there is no way – for both of you – that He blesses you and reveals His love to you both – in a very real way – right where you are.
The Holy Spirit is a great teacher and He will teach you!
Chris,
I love you man. You know my number…call me.
thanx michelle for the encouragement. love u too darren. dont worry guys i dont think that of anyone i know…thats based on the way i used to be and on what some of the atheists/whatever peeps tell me in the gizebo at school. sorry if that came out wrong guys…i get really exited. just in general i think its hard to find a balance between preeching with ‘the word’ and the quality of friendship i have with some one. i think ost people dont want to hear anything unless you know their story, even though it doesnt really matter if you know them, the word is still the word. for some i dont think thats its ‘they don’t know’ but more like ‘they are not know’. its easier to make the connection of being known by god if his followers want to get to know you. i used to be like that, and i used to never listen people unless they knew anything about me. i matured and im not so bad these days. im pretty sure thats how most of the ‘non=receptive’ people are. the comment i made about chris was an extreme case of someone needing to be known and reached out to, sorry if i caused concern :/ i hope i did a better job this time explaining my view
darlene, i love the song ‘if we are the body’! its a song that chalenges me to care more, to do more for my friends and family. how can the fire get bigger, if we are stingy (not directing this at you) with giving up the chaff to be burned? paul said to one church that are like babies that can only consume milk, and arent ready for the meat. all exhorting has to be is honest, def not watered down. (not exagerated, either). i agree with you, just not on your example of casting crowns. and im not so sure that some pastors these days are not afraid of offending their people. no offending (no exhorting) may egual build up of chaff, may mean smaller fire, less noticable to outsiders, and certainly not spreading. i wonder if i am on to something there, but it may be just untaimed thoughts running in that direction.
p.s. i think its cool that you were raised as an athiest. im def heeding you advice about how to talk with ppl who dont believe
This is a great discussion. Much needed reflection on where are our hearts. I agree with you wholeheartedly Darren. We have to start looking at ourselves and how we are coming across to people. I have a comment directed to Darlene. I understand what you said about people shouldn’t be looking to us but to the Lord because we are not perfect. My comment to this is, we need to be careful about not copping out on becoming imitators of Christ. Let me try to explain myself. Paul said to follow him, his example, because he followed Christ. He wasn’t being arrogant or prideful. He knew his LORD and His power to transform and conform him to His own image and likeness. He also knew his weaknesses and failings when he said, “the things I want to do I don’t but the things I don’t want to do I do. Oh wreched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” I think the concept of sanctification is hazy to many Christians and therefore there is the status quo mentality and a lethargy that ensues because we don’t see the change and victory right away. I have been in the prescence of Christians that will curse at other Christians. Now we can all slip up in these things but my bigger concern than the cursing is the fact that some of these professing Christians never seem to come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that they have done anything wrong and never go and apologize and ask for forgiveness. Ths is what the outsiders see and then think, “so where is the difference that God and Christ are making in their lives?” I think there would be a radical change if we would go and make ammends to the people we have hurt and offended. And what about when we see a brother or sister in Christ doing something wrong? Do we go and restore the one overtaken in a fault with meekness? I know God has been dealing with me about looking at my heart motives. This walk is a process…we hopefully are growing children. We will stumble and fall, get some bruises but as with a child it is EXPECTED that the child will grow and mature even if there are setbacks and slow growth at times. May we never make excuses for ourselves about not being perfect but rather go and confess when we have so badly represented our Beloved Lord and then press on for the mark of the HIGH calling in Christ. May God grant us all the grace, strength and wisdom to die to self everyday so that Christ may truly live.